FPIF Commentary |
Using India to Keep China at Bay
Tim Beal | December 12, 2006
Editor: John Feffer, IRC
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U.S. attempts to construct and consolidate an alliance to contain China's seemingly inexorable rise registered another milestone in November when the U.S. Senate passed a bill to allow the government to transfer nuclear fuel and technology to India. The nuclear deal with India flies in the face of long-standing U.S. rhetoric about nuclear proliferation and is yet another blow to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).
There has been a degree of opposition in the United States to the agreements with the India deal. For example, in an op-ed in the Washington Post, former President Jimmy Carter was scathing about the “dangerous deal with India.” Many predicted a difficult time for the administration in pushing through a bill so flagrantly in conflict with its posturing on proliferation. “In concluding its nuclear deal with India, the Bush administration faces significant opposition in Congress and tough questions from its allies on whether the arrangement could set a precedent encouraging the spread of nuclear weapons to Iran and other potential foes of the United States,” opined Steven Weisman in The New York Times.
But when it came to it, this “significant opposition” faded away like the morning mist. On November 17, the Senate decided by 85 votes to 12 that, in the words of The New York Times correspondent, the “goal of nurturing India as an ally outweighed concerns over the risks of spreading nuclear skills and bomb-making materials.”
The U.S. decision to tie the nuclear knot with India is in part about money—the size of the growing Indian economy and the profits to be made in the new nuclear-military relationship. More importantly, however, India figures prominently in general U.S. geostrategic aims in Asia and toward China in particular.
The Economics of the Deal
India is the second fastest growing major economy in the world. According to the CIA its real GDP grew 7.6% in 2005, not far behind China's 9.3% and over twice America's 3.5%. It is also, again according to the CIA, the fourth largest economy in the world on a purchasing power parity basis (China comes in at number two) and accounts for 1.1% of world imports. In general, India is a large and increasingly attractive market and economic partner.
The nuclear deal links this rapidly growing economy more closely to the United States and also boosts trade in a particularly profitable sector. The nuclear industry is big business, and “nuclear transfer” translates into significant sales for U.S. nuclear technology firms.
Then there are conventional armaments. India is a major military power with an appetite to match. In 2005 it was the largest buyer of arms in the developing world with purchases of US$5.4 billion. Russia, to America's chagrin, was the largest seller to the developing world, and India is its principal market. The administration hopes that the nuclear deal will change all that by paving the way for a huge $6 billion contract to buy 124 U.S. fighter aircraft.
Such arms deals, of course, will have no relationship with proliferation, because that is what countries like Russia, China, and North Korea do, not the United States. Bill Clinton, in his State of the Union speech in 1999, proclaimed, “We must increase our efforts to restrain the spread of nuclear weapons and missiles, from [North] Korea to India and Pakistan.” In the world of geopolitics, however, seven years is a very long time. And the past is very much a different country.
Strategic Partnership
Although important, money is only part of the reason behind the nuclear deal. The U.S.-India strategic relationship—and that's what they are calling it—gives the United States leverage over India in many ways, or so it is hoped in Washington and feared in Delhi. The Communist Party of India, a junior partner in Singh's coalition government, has warned that “the strategic relationship only means that India will be part of the U.S. strategies of global policing and undermine its role in international politics and its resolve to promote multilateralism in international relations.” United Progressive Alliance Chairperson Sonia Gandhi said that the UPA, and the Congress party, would not accept anything outside the original agreement of July 18, 2005.
One huge danger, which for obvious reasons is seldom articulated in public, is that India will become embroiled in America's anti-Islamic crusade. India has, in the past, refused to send troops to Iraq. That particular request is unlikely to surface again, given likely U.S. plans for disengagement. But as the relationship deepens, similar requests might be more difficult for India to reject. Nearly one-seventh of India's population is Muslim, and inter-communal violence, and terrorism, is a constant concern.
While deployment of Indian troops to Iraq is unlikely, the United States may well call on India for other forms of assistance, such as support against Iran. India has traditionally maintained good relations with Iran, in part to counterbalance Pakistan. Also, for a number of years, India has talked with Iran about a pipeline that would supply natural gas from Iran via Pakistan. This energy deal must produce palpitations in certain Washington hearts. Not merely would it provide revenue for Iran (and Pakistan), and give India (and Pakistan) a degree of energy security, away from the immediate attention of the U.S. navy. It would also tie the three countries together in mutual benefit.
Containing China
For America, however, the real strategic target of the U.S.-India relationship is China. How the United States implements its China containment strategy, and how successful such a strategy will be, is another matter. China has military, economic, and diplomatic cards to play. India came off badly when it picked a fight with China in 1962 and is not looking to revive any conflict. China overtook the United States a couple of years ago as the major supplier to the Indian market. President Hu Jintao has just concluded a visit to South Asia where he appears to have pulled off quite an achievement in developing a better relationship with India without annoying Pakistan, something that Bush has not been able to do.
In addition, China (presumably with Russian approval) implemented a significant strategic counter-offensive in June 2006 by inviting India (along with Iran, Pakistan, and Mongolia) to become full members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO). This invitation reversed China's position, stated as recently as January, that India and the other countries would have to be content with observer status. The SCO, formed in 2001 to check U.S. influence in Central Asia, may well expand to counterbalance a similarly expanding NATO. So the contest for India's favor is by no means a forgone conclusion.
Moreover, India has its own games to play and is no mere cat's paw of other powers. Apart from its perennial contest with Pakistan, it seeks a dominant position in South Asia with its interventions in East Pakistan/Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, and expansion of influence in the Himalayan states. It has also sought a degree of primacy in the Indian Ocean and adjacent Southeast Asia. In short, India is looking to establish a role commensurate with its importance on the world stage.
Nevertheless, the strategic interests of India and America with respect of China have a natural overlap. Washington would probably view favorably any increase in India's ability to project military power in Asia. The U.S.-India agreements allow for closer cooperation in defense and in areas such as satellites and space exploration. It is not clear to what degree the United States will help India develop its nuclear missile capability, and such protocols will certainly not be made public. The New Framework for the U.S.-India Defense Relationship of June 2005 certainly does not clarify this matter.
India's missile program is a key determining factor shaping the U.S.-India-China triangle. India's Agni III missile, which has a design range of 3,500 km, had an unsuccessful test in July when it only reached 1000 km. India claims that a special steel to be used in its scheduled 2007 test will increase the design range between 15 and 30%. The distance between Delhi and Beijing is 3,800 km, so the improved Agni III, if successful, will bring all of China within range. How much help are Indian scientists getting from their new friends in Washington? It is not yet known but one area of missile cooperation the New Framework did specifically mention was “missile defense.” On November 27, India claimed to have successfully conducted an anti-missile test, intercepting one (nuclear-capable) Prithvi with another.
This developing friendship between the United States and India has all sorts of ramifications. It influences, for instance, America's relationship with Pakistan, and the United States needs Pakistan in its increasingly difficult struggle to control Afghanistan. However, Washington's willingness to jeopardize other important relationships indicates just how central the containment of China is to U.S. strategic policy.
Tim Beal teaches at Victoria University of Wellington. He is the author of North Korea: The Struggle Against American Power (Pluto Press, London and Ann Arbor) and is currently working on a study of the impact of China and India on international political economy. His personal site is at www.vuw.ac.nz/~caplabtb/beal.html.
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Published by Foreign Policy In Focus (FPIF), a project of the Institute for Policy Studies (IPS, online at www.ips-dc.org). Copyright © 2008, Institute for Policy Studies.
Recommended citation:
Tim Beal, “Using India to Keep China at Bay,” (Silver City, NM & Washington, DC: Foreign Policy In Focus, December 12, 2006).
Web location:
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/3775
Production Information:
Author(s): Tim Beal
Editor(s): John Feffer, IRC
Production: Nick Henry, IRC |
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| Name: |
mohd saleem |
Date: Dec 12, 2006 |
| yes its right that US is looking 2 india not just for business purpose but also for strategic purpose to contain china. the chinese are far sighted, they are already playing their cards by wooing many south asian countries by increasing their influence all round asia. they are increasing their defence ties with many countries. they are intent to keep the americans away from asia by decreasing their role in asian affairs. the US now have fewer friends in asia.
looking at the recent developments
1) their warming up of relations with russia to counter US
2)their recent african summit in which all 40 african heads are present (to show US that they are now starting to call the shots in the world)
so in every sense of the word though still china is economically and militarily inferior to the US, it's very much breathing down its neck right now. imagine china 10 or 15 years a head ... as an indian i hope india will increase their role in asia and act as a counter balance to china. |
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| Name: |
Gus |
Date: Dec 12, 2006 |
| Indians are seeing this bill as no favor to india, at least after those intrusive clause added. India can not and will not limits its capability till it reaches a parity against China, which is playing a proxy war by arming Pakistan. Trying to get India endorse NPT or CTBT through backdoor or any means will be futile as Indian public will treat this as an unfriendly and hostile act. Yes this deal is definitely favor for US industry who have not improved their technological expertise in nuclear industry where France and other European countries are way ahead. They can compete only if there is a goodwill which initially this deal brought in its original shape. India wants same treatment as China gets, without limiting its ability to improve nuclear arsenal till it reaches nuclear parity with China. China has annexed Tibet and bullying India to concede more. USA as a friend should utilize and assure Indian public that it is good deal and remove the intrusive or extranneous conditions that will be hard to swallow for Indian public. |
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| Name: |
Brandon |
Date: Dec 12, 2006 |
| India should get all support from USA for countering China. it is not hidden that China and Pakistan have been repeatedly proven difficult countries to handle with respect spread of nuclear weapon and illegal trading. This deal should not limit India's capability to balance china, and definitely should enunciate that it doesn't intend to push india toward CTBT or NPT, without nuclear parity with China. Else Indian public will reject this deal and USA will lose all the goodwill and trust. |
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| Name: |
James |
Date: Dec 14, 2006 |
| It's quite pathetic. If the mighty US itself can't do much to check China, but count on India to do the job, then the whole thing is hopeless.
The problem is that you lose so much in this deal, like discredit NPT, but gain nothing. |
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| Name: |
Lee Wee Shing |
Date: Dec 18, 2006 |
| I've read all these comments above & more so from all the rants appearing on major Indian Newspapers like The Indian Age, Hindustan Express, Times of India, etc. during Prez Hu's visit, I cannot but feel sorry for the utter stupidity, ignorance & most of all, a sense of inferiority complex of the great Indian people!
Stupidity--America is not noted for her sincerity/brotherlihood when dealing with other states. All states are expedient & nothing shall come above American self interest. Look at how they cultivated Osama bin Laden & the Talibans to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan, & later dumped/turned around & hunted them once the jobs were done. Look at how Gen Muzsharaf of Pakistan was slighted after all the helps he rendered in deposing the Talibans, the Americans just would not offer him the same treatment as the Indians as far as this nuke deal is concerned! So, Indians beware!
Ignorance--all this Western hype about Indian Rise & parity with/overtaking of China is just an emotional`opium' feeding on the Indians' sense of inferiority complex/insecurity so as to lock the two in a bitter conflict/competition with the West being the ultimate winner. While I fully respect the advances made by the Indian people, it is evidently clear that India is way behind China in economy, foreign reserve, literacy, sports, land-mass, life expectancy, FDI, R & D spending etc...... & the list goes on. Moreover, we Chinese are not going to sit back & wait for the Indians to catch up! There is every possibility the gap will even widen instead! I would sincerely like to invite all sound-minded Indians to come & experience China first-hand in order to appreciate the vast gap between the two nations & not be hook-winked by the unrealistic flattery of these Westerners with an ulterior motive!
This Grand Game of hedging one against another--this mischiefs of the White man are nothing new to us. America & China had had many opportunities sparring with each other over the last 100 years & we have emerged none-the-worse unscratched- we defeated the Nationalists (supported by the Americans) during the Civil War, we fought the Americans to a stand-still in the Korean War (considered a victory in default 'cos we were so ill-equiped, friendless & poor then), we assisted the North Vietnamese in routing the Americans to their most humiliating defeat in history, we thwarted American attempt to have regime-change in the 1989 Tiananmen Square Uprising etc... & the list goes on. The problems with these White man are: they still think all the other peoples of the world are inherently stupid like our fore-fathers in the 18th & 19th century. Those days are truely gone & buried for good. The new Chinese are modern, bi-lingual, well-versed with Western thinkings/cultures (many attend top American universities, live & work in the West) but still remain vehemently patriotic to our race & country.
In return,there are cards we can play against American/Western interests: Iranian/North Korean nuke attempts, SCO to rid American encrouchment into Central Asia, playing Pakistan off against India, make life difficult for American anti-terror enterprise in the Middle East/Afghanistan by supporting Syria/Iran, cosying up to Hugo Chavez/Fidel Castro/Morales to stir trouble in American's own backyard in South America.
& the ultimate weapon-collapsing American economy by dumping the US dollar! It is no accident that the so-called Arab terrorists of 911 attack chose to hit at the Twin Tower first instead of The White House 'cos The World Trade Center represented a powerful symbol of the confidence of unparallel American financial/economic strengths. All facets of American dominance in military hardware, scientific/technological innovations, wealth,influence etc derived from this rock solid foundation. By diminishing/destroying this foundation will bring America to her knees & reduce her to a regional power role in the North American Continent. We have the means to deliver this blow, albeit only if we were forced to & only as a final resort. |
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| Name: |
arn |
Date: Jan 10, 2007 |
| This article about the USA using India to keep China "at bay" betrays the imperialist mindset and agenda of both Tim Beal and the not-so-progressive think tank Foreign Policy in Focus.
If any country needs to be "kept at bay" it is the American Empire and its allies (like India).
Last time I checked, it is America that is waging global wars of aggression around the planet from Afghanistan to Iraq to Somalia (all under the big lie of "fighting terrorism"). Indeed, America has openly advocated a policy of pre-emptive aggression, overthrowing sovereign governments (regime change), and has a nuclear first-strike doctrine.
Yet implicit in both Beal's article and FPIF's general framing of this and other issues is the idea that China is a threat that must be contained! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
As for India, it hopes to use this new dark alliance with America to expand its own ambitions in South Asia and beyond. It is India that is occupying nations like Kashmir and fighting numerous colonial pacification wars in Manipur, Assam, and Bodoland. As part of India's alliance with the USA, you can be sure that America will increasingly aid and support these Indian wars under the guise of "anti-terrorism."
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| Name: |
totalloss |
Date: Jan 25, 2007 |
| I think by far the best analysis of what USA is trin to do to keep itself on top of the world. What I realize is that, in all this setting, India today is in a position, where it can constructively engage all the great powers in the system to advance its objectives. It can be argued that India is the sole rising power that is yet to be wholly housed and mirrored in the major political institutions of today's system. Your article deserves appreciation. |
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| Name: |
kalpesh |
Date: Feb 25, 2007 |
| hey arn wats wrong with ur knowledge bout geographical boundaries of india. hv u even seen the map of india. cus kashmir is not a nation n part of indian territories since kashmirs maharajas decision to join with india in 1948. as with Manipur and Assam, they are the two states out of 29 states in india. n as such there are no colonial pacificatio wars going out there. As with fpif, how can u put such a comment on display without taking into considerations the knowledge of the writer. |
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| Name: |
shankarananda .a.p(indian) |
Date: Mar 05, 2007 |
| i have read the big comment. one thing to be said is india cannot be held by the usa as it has done to laden or pakistan as you think. when you attacked us in 1962 it was us who helped us politically. secondly leave it to time to answer whether india is way behind china or not. secondly the 1962 war which was done by chinese was the betrayal of our friendship which our ancestors had for more then 2500 years and that to by having the agreement of "hindi chine bhai bhai" (indian chinese brothers). later to chinese supported pakistanis aganist india and also support other terroist organization towards east of india but never such attempt was made by indians by encouraging tebetiens by following terrorism. we belong to the country which gave the world jevel of peace namely buddha and gandhi even the worlds oldest martial art kalaripattu was given by us which transformed to other parts of world through tibet forming other martial arts. the point is chinese should never try to contain india as it is said that usa tries to. china developed from 40 years but india is from just less than 10 years. i accept that we r weak in sports till now compared to china but not in EDUCATION. THANKU |
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| Name: |
denk |
Date: Mar 14, 2007 |
http://www.workers.org/marcy/cd/samwith/within/pcnvrt05.htm
50 yrs on, its deja vu all over again, india falling over itself to be used as uncle sham's pitbull in asia. |
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| Name: |
denk |
Date: Mar 22, 2007 |
| *** shankarananda .a.p(indian) says,
chinese supported pakistanis aganist india and also support other terroist organization towards east of india***
"I was in fact specifically requested by Indira Gandhi in 1981 to discover the Chinese position on this agitation by raising the issue with Chairman Deng Xiaoping. And now it is an established truth that China consistently discouraged any attempt by extremist Assam agitators to go to China illegally across the border to internationalise the issue. India thus gained tremendously by this cooperative non-interference by China"
[http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1718/17180240.htm]
btw, i wonder what mr shankar meant by terroist organization towards "east of india"? is he unwittingly admitting that the socalled indian north east region, which is one of the largest land grab of the century, including "assam" etc, is actually not a part of india?
[http://www.gettingit.com/article/518]
*** but never such attempt was made by indians by encouraging tebetiens by following terrorism..***
"Publicly, the Indian government regards Tibet as an integral part of China. But in popular parlance and in many of its actions, it does not behave as if Tibet is a part of China. For example, the Indian government raised in the 1980s a highly paid special service unit, a 8,000-strong commando group of Tibetans, who woke up every morning in the special camps with cries of "Long liv e the Dalai Lama. We shall liberate Tibet". This commando group is still under the active supervision of the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) and the Cabinet Secretariat....."
does mr shankaran know that the 1959 tibetan uprising was a "joint venture" caper between raw and cia too?
p.s. i dont know if this post will "pass muster" with the webmaster,
but i shall try anyway, my conscience is clear. |
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| Name: |
jys390 |
Date: Apr 05, 2007 |
| very impressive, denk...
I don't agree that Chinese and Indians should be enemies. I'm Chinese American (okay here comes the attacks), but I really like Indians... in many ways, we share two very similar and proud cultures. Personally, I'm even more impressed by Indian culture. hehe...
But it's silly to triangulate and fight everyone. One day hopefully we'll have some peace. |
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| Name: |
denk |
Date: Apr 30, 2007 |
| ** jys390 says very impressive, denk... I don't agree that Chinese and Indians should be enemies.***
the chinese dont agree that they and ANYBODY should be enemies......
here lies the problem, is this humility reciprocated?
china decided to build the "bomb" in the 60's coz, after a series of nuclear blackmail from the us, the chinese decided that was no way to live your life going to bed every night wondering if you would see the next sunrise. thats why mao declared that "we must have the bomb, even if it means that the folks go around without trousers on them". so china went on to built a small nuclear force for the sole purpose of detering a us attack, not to "challenge the us domination" as distorted in the us msm, certainly not to intidimate india. in fact china is the only nuclear power to declare a non first use doctrine.
yet right after the 1998 indian nuclear test, defence minister george fernandez promptly declared china as no 1 enemy. coming from a man who once boasted that a nuclear war with pakistan "is winnable" coz india could afford to take a few hits, a few million casualties and still able to wipe out pakistan, such bellicocity must have sent a shiver down the chinese spine. indian prez vijapayee even wrote a personal letter to clinton, "relax my friend, this is for the chinks". how very considerate of him?
the present indian "defence" minister, murkherjee, is not much friendlier, he pointedly brought up the 1962 chinese aggression on the eve of the chinese pm's visit in 2005[?]. last week, india test fired its "china specified" agni III missile. the indians could hardly conceal their glee that much of china, including beijing and shanghai, are now within range of their missiles. but, they hastened to add, they are in no hurry to extend the range, hell, they "dont want to upset the west." tsk tsk tsk. |
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| Name: |
denk |
Date: May 01, 2007 |
| 1959, raw [indian intel] and cia conspired to stage the tibetan rebellion.
1962, india provoked the border war with china, henceforth known as "the chinese aggression in 1962" in the west, at the behest of uncle sham. no sooner than the gunsmoke cleared away when india declared its alliance with usa to "contain china", it has followed this path ever since, the following years saw indian militarists shuttling from japan to hanoi or jarkarta etc., trying to collar every potential adversaries of china to form an anti china clique. 1998, indian declared china the target of its nuclear programme. 2001, indian elites sent out feelers for an "asian nato" to contain china, [http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FC09Df02.html], on behalf of none other than us "defence" sec rumsfeld, currently india has signed "defence" pact with usa, japan, australia, vietnam. usa and co are effectively "creeping" towards the socalled asian nato spearheaded by india and the us.
*** jys390 says,
But it's silly to triangulate and fight everyone. One day hopefully we'll have some peace***
of course its silly to fight everyone, but dont you think you are kinda blaming the victim here.?
***okay here comes the attacks), but I really like Indians... in many ways, we share two very similar and proud cultures. Personally, I'm even more impressed by Indian culture. hehe... ***
why are you "attacking" me for telling the truth? all these yellow peril craps if left unchallenged will create a backlash for chinese yanks like you, ever heard of lee wen ho? am i supposed to freak out coz you are into indian culture? hell, curry happens to be amongst my favourite food, lots of cross culture interaction are going on, just look around you'll see lots of indians dating chinese. i have no problem with that either, but i have seen so much hostility from that quarter in the msm and internet, sometimes i couldnt help but wonder, how many of these guys go home to bang out anti chinese diatribe on their laptop? |
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| Name: |
Indian |
Date: May 03, 2007 |
| I am reading the india china comparisons and in fact one of my hobbies is to know about China. And i agree to some of the points made very cleanly, honestly and straight from his heart by Lee Wee Shing. To understand the Chinese phyche, Chinese thoughts, Chinese policies is to understand Lee Wee Shing and what he writes.
He says Indians have an inferiority against the Chinese, but he himself always tells white man, no one has here ever told yellow man. The inferiority he talks about is due to half of Chinese accepting, practising and adapting to Buddhism exported from India -- not the other way around.
When he says China is ahead of India in landmass its a shame for China (because India can support nearly as many people with one third of China's land area). When he tells about sports (India does not need to play to get ahead of China economically). When he tells about foreign exchange (India does not borrow money read FDI from rest of the world to sustain itself with an export oreinted economy).
The very fact he tells that by switching off the Dollare, China can collapse USA, long before that happens by just importing toys from India, USA can bring out a Civil war in china due to the economic collapse of its export oriented economy. By Pitting Pakistan against India, China is playing the same game americans had played when they established mujahideen. He talks about how proud the Chinese are about their race even after studying in american universities, he however forgets, the race of india and pakistan is same, our religions is different. If indians and pakistanis start feeling proud of their races like the Chinese, we can unite and wipe out China. USA will never be required to do that.
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| Name: |
Indian |
Date: May 11, 2007 |
| US has got enough fire power to take down china several times. Issue now is not about military strength!! China's economy is growing and US wants to control it!! nuke deal is for controling the oil prize!! India and china are growing!! let us not spoil this beautiful moment by vomiting half baked comments! |
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| Name: |
Vijay |
Date: May 19, 2007 |
Mr. Arn,
Learn geography first. Kashmir was and is part of India and been that way before Mr. Mahamud was born and invented Allah. |
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| Name: |
denk |
Date: May 27, 2007 |
| ***indian says,
If indians and pakistanis start feeling proud of their races like the Chinese, we can unite and wipe out China. USA will never be required to do that.***
WIPE OUT CHINA EH? why such venom? i have never seen any chinese showing such malice towards india and i have been around for a while, an amateur political observer for almost five decades now. but this isnt the first time i see such gratuitous hostilities coming from indians. back in 1998 [?], there were no "blogs", and my letters didnt seem to pass muster with those esteemed editors of iht, feer, asian war street journal, etc. so i started exploring those "lowly" newsgroups like soc.culture.china etc. , at least they dont have some hypocritical editors who wag their fingers at censorship in countries like china but practicing the same thing themselves. those were free for all and no hold bar forums. the first thing that struck me was the number of yanks and indians, the usual suspects, who monopolised the discussions. their usual gripes ? you guess it, tibet, taiwan and all that jazz. soon i was bewildered by the sheer amount of malicious glee spewed by some indian posters , many seem to spent their day combing the internet to collect everything thats negative about china, some even gloated on the frequent natural disasters that plagued the chinese -- like massive quakes, monstrous floods, hideous heat wave etc etc.
i once questioned those chaps why such obcession with china [its your hobby i see], one of them declared matter of factly that coz he "care about china" , this was the same guy who later mused that may be india should lob a couple of missiles over to the three gorges dam, soon after india tested its agni 1 , which had only a puny range and i think the three gorges dam wasnt even built yet. i reminded him about his professed love for china several months before, that settled it, he wasnt heard in that forum ever since, at least not with the same moniker.
i have been asking that question ever since, "why such hostilities".?
everywhere i go, whether msm or alternate medium like fpif, the usual suspects, yanks and indians, will be there bleating about tibet, taiwan, humanrights etc and all that jazz, as if they really care, as if their own humanrights records is anything to crow about. every now and then, their declared concern about china gave way to unseemly delight about some natural or man made disasters in china. [sic]
ex indian defence minister george fernandez once boasted that india can sustain a couple of millions casualties and still "wipe out pak", when such a man declared china as no 1 enemy, did he order a couple of agnis zeroed in on the three gorges dam? i told the guy who "care for china" that may be its god's will that china got its bomb before india, had it been the other way round, heavens know what crazies like fernnadez might do with their "toys".
i heard georgie boy [the us prez] gets his inspiration from god , if i were the almighty, i would whisper into the chimp's ear, "what have u done this time you brat ? folks with such psyche like george fernandez and his ilks shouldnt be trusted with wmd like nukes, !!"
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| Name: |
noel |
Date: May 29, 2007 |
Mr.vijay,
please keep to the subject... you're hurting moeslem... :(
Let's say Mr.Arn was wrong, you shuld've shown him what's true and not make more wrong comment!!!
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| Name: |
Shan |
Date: Jun 14, 2007 |
Basically our gripe against China is:
1.Claiming our territory in Arunachal Pradesh (The whole state infact)
2.Blocking the nuclear deal in the NSG
3.Arming Pakistan to the hilt by nuke proliferation.
Don't you realize a better armed Pak will result in an even better armed India (economy>5 times Pak) which will have every reason to align itself with the US ? |
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| Name: |
denk |
Date: Jun 17, 2007 |
| shan says...***Basically our gripe against China is: 3.Arming Pakistan to the hilt by nuke proliferation. ***
indians are perpetually complaining about china's pak connection, but they seem to have forgotten the events that precipated this alliance...
1] 1959 cia raw [indian intel] engineered tibet rebellion.
2] 1962 indo china war.
"In the immediate aftermath of the border war, india appeared to be moving closer to the U.S. nehru maintained that non-alignment was alive and unimpaired, but in 1963 the Indian Foreign secretary expressed the Indian Government's willingness 'to work with the United States both politically and militarily in the rest of Asia' for the containment of China."
[http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/1962war.htm]
"All this is relevant to the India-Pakistan confrontation today. China's 1962 border war with India followed the 1959 Tibetan uprising [in which we now find that india and the CIA were involved] That, combined with the 1958 confrontation with America in the Taiwan Strait and the growing dispute with the Soviet Union, was enough to convince Chinese leaders that they were being surrounded. Alliance with Pakistan was the only way they could break the stranglehold, they reasoned."
[http://www.iht.com/articles/1998/06/06/edgreg.t.php#]
***Don't you realize a better armed Pak will result in an even better armed India (economy>5 times Pak) which will have every reason to align itself with the US ?***
india had aligned itself with the u.s. twice in 1959 and 1962, long before china decided to tie up with pak. dont confuse cause with effect. you have chosen to align with the u.s. organised posse again.
[http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo20070607bc.html] stop using pak as an excuse, you simply have got this fetishism about the yanks thats all.
the sino pak alliance isnt a mean to "contain" india, rather its a way to COUNTER the indo us containment.
***2.Blocking the nuclear deal in the NSG *** please elaborate. |
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| Name: |
denk |
Date: Jun 25, 2007 |
Name: Shan Date: Jun 14, 2007
Basically our gripe against China is:
1.Claiming our territory in Arunachal Pradesh (The whole state infact) ***
"If a general of the Chinese imperial government representing the Manchu dynasty had, by force of arms, pillage and plunder, succeeded in subjugating the North American continent and on that basis had artificially created a border line between the United States and Canada called, let us say, The Manchu Line, would a sovereign U.S. government abide by thus border line?
Let us suppose further that the boundary line demarcated by this general included, for the Canadian side, parts of Buffalo, Detroit, Seattle and Duluth. Let us suppose again that the treaty between Canada and the U.S. dictated by this general had never been accepted by any government of the United States, and that in truth the people of the U.S. regarded this treaty and its boundary line as illegal, null and void, and as the imposition of a foreign power at a time when the U.S. was weak, divided and under the domination of a foreign imperialist power.
All we have to do with this analogy is to just change the name -- Canada to India, United States to China and China to Great Britain -- and the picture becomes immeasurably clearer than it is represented in the U.S. press. "
http://www.workers.org/marcy/cd/samwith/within/pcnvrt05.htm
unlike india's claim on aksa chin, china's claim is far from frivilous.
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|
| Name: |
denk |
Date: Jul 09, 2007 |
***Shan Basically our gripe against China is:
1.Claiming our territory in Arunachal Pradesh (The whole state infact)
2.Blocking the nuclear deal in the NSG***
i dont see how china could "block" the nsg deal, but i can understand why the chinese get pissed off...
"They are building an alliance that is bound to alarm the Chinese, who cannot fail to see it as directed against them. There is absolutely no evidence for aggressive Chinese intentions toward India or anywhere in South Asia, but Washington and New Delhi are laying the foundations for a new Cold War in Asia. "
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060305/news_lz1e5dyer.html
a us sponsored nuclear armed and hostile india right at its doorstep !!!
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|
| Name: |
Anonymous |
Date: Jul 26, 2007 |
| I don't believe India has a problem Chinese people, just its Communist government. Who, even though the put on a happy face, would like to consume India just like it did with Tibet. India is, I'm sure aware of this, but are not firm enough when it comes with the Chinese goverment in areas and that is something that will need to change. China is just using Pakistan to try and contain India and use Pakistan as a access point to Middle Eastern energy resources, such as gas and oil. |
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| Name: |
arn |
Date: Sep 16, 2007 |
| Indians always play the Tibet card with respect to China, yet carefully ignore the reality that India is fighting several colonial pacification wars in Kashmir, Assam, Nagaland, and Manipur--all of which are resisting Indian rule.
The idea that China wants to "consume" India is laughable, and is a favorite propaganda meme that Indian nationalists promote to divert attention from India's own expansitionist ambitions and to justify India's own military build-up.
India has a doctrine called AKHAND BHARAT which calls for India to "consume" most of South Asia including Pakistan, parts of Afghanistan to the Kush Mountains, and Nepal. Some Hindu fundamentalists call this entity HINDUSTAN.
As for the Indian whining about China "blocking" the NSG deal, this deal itself is hypocritical to the core. The same America (and India) that lecture Iran about its civilan nuclear program are engaging in proliferating nuclear technology that can (and will) be used for nuclear weapons by India.
That's the nature of the self-styled world's largest democracy and world's leading democracy for you. |
|
| Name: |
Vivek, India |
Date: Sep 24, 2007 |
| I think this funny talk about India-US deal coming from the big daddy of Nuclear Wal-Mart who proliferated nuclear weapons to buddies like North Korea and Pakistan is the height of hypocrisy. The Chinese in USA should thank God that they are living in a democracy and continue enjoying it instead of talking much about a their country that has friends such as Iran, Pakistan, North Korea, Former Pol Pot ruled Cambodia etc.. |
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| Name: |
arn |
Date: Sep 29, 2007 |
| Like "democracy" itself, the issue of nuclear proliferation has been manipulated by America and its allies (like India) as propaganda to attack opposing nations--as seen by the comments above. The contradiction between US/Indian rhetoric and their behavior reveals this reality.
India is now demanding that it be given INDIA-SPECIFIC exemptions and loopholes for its nuclear program, even as the USA and Indians rant about Iran's program and ignore the fact that: 1) Iran has signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) while INDIA HAS NOT. 2) Iran has submitted to the IAEA's biased inspection regime and still been given a preliminary clean bill of health by the IAEA recently. Even US arms control organizations have described the USA-India nuclear deal as a "Nonproliferation Disaster."
http://www.armscontrol.org/pressroom/2006/20061211_Nonproliferation_Disaster.asp
In fact, the big daddy of proliferation is none other than India's Best Friend Forever, America, which proliferates nuclear technology to allies like India and Zionist Israel (another bosom buddy of India) and places its nukes in Europe, the Middle East, and Asia. The USA of course is the only country ever to use nuclear weapons. This exposes not only the hypocrisy of "responsible" America and India but also their arrogance as the self-appointed judge and jury of weapons proliferation.
That said, the lie of "democracy" is even greater than US/India propaganda about non-proliferation. Indian and Hindutva nationalists may beat their breasts over Bollywood tales about liberal democracy, but the true essence of this so-called democracy is evidenced by India's Gujarat Genocide and colonial wars against Kashmir, Assam, Manipur, and elsewhere.
It's appropriate that India is an ally of America, where the Bush regime came to power through STOLEN elections in both 2000 and 2004 and is creating a de facto police state with the Patriot Act, Homeland Security Department, etc.
At base, the issues of "democracy" and "non-proliferation" are like the USA's intelligence (sic) about Iraqi WMDs: they are LIES through and through.
|
|
| Name: |
am indian |
Date: Oct 18, 2007 |
| While I agree with many chinese here that there Indians hold more anger against chinese than vice-versa, there are valid reasons for that.
1. China gave Nuke to Pak which by itself was not capable.
2. China holds part of Kashmir now renamed Aksai Chin after capture in 1962. when was this ever part of china in history??? (I have no doubts chinese will come up with a story on this)
3. Tibet, when free, never had any border issues with India then how come China got border with india after gobbling tibet has issues ???
4. Chinese always say Indians started 1962 war but the indian PM J. Nehru was the most pro-china politician. he could not believe that the country he believed the most had hoodwinked him while saying everything was ok between 2 countries. Nehru had earlier sent 5 indian doctors to china before india itself became free. Being a socialist, he used to admire china before 1962.
5. Chinese people are nice but chinese government is politically ambitious.
On economics side, I agree that India has a lot to catch up to on infrastructure front. |
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